Labouring the relevance of Doc Type over question asked

Post split from original thread http://www.csscreator.com/css-forum/ftopic9820.html&highlight=

David I couldn't agree with you more, indeed there is a propensity for posters questions to get sidelined by the " get a Doc Type" sort of response .

This is indeed not the most helpful response and applying oneself to the question asked should be the priority whilst introducing the subject of standards and Doc Types as an aside once the attempt has been made to help out the poster.
It remains true, however that there are times when people present themselves unprepared and clearly not cognizant of these issues and where it is clear that to offer help is going to be coloured by these circumstances it may be necessary to point this out and guide the person towards relevant help on the subject before their original question may be dealt with, but this should be a deliberate decision which is explained as helpfully to the person as possible.

My response to your original comment was out of concern that we veer the other way and start to place less importance on the whole issue of standards or indeed that people may get nervous about bringing the subject up, as it is still very relevant to the type of matters dealt with here.

There is also a tendency of late to overcomplicate some responses to posters questions which I also find to be less than helpfully at times and worry that there is a tendency towards demonstrating ones ability rather than just sticking to the question asked , there comes a point where there can be too much information.

The forum is not here to showcase peoples talents but to help out them out with there problems, to guide them towards the right approach, to help them help themselves and as such I find the propensity to re-work their code or just to write a whole new file for them to be the absolute antithesis of helping someone and indeed I know that this has bemused certain posters who really were hoping for guidance and illumination rather than the work to be done for them . To hand the answer on a plate is not teaching in any conceivable manner and indeed has the effect of diminishing someones understanding.
This is a subject that was discussed last year in that infamous thread you started David but that sadly is little understood, Socrates where are you when we need you.

I agree that we must always firstly consider the question in hand then secondly the relevance of the DTD and Standards to this question before blindly barking out the DTD mantra something I hope that I have not been guilty off, although I may be corrected on this point

We do indeed need to remember the purpose of the forum and the level at which it's primarily aimed and respond accordingly.

hugo.

:oops: Guilty as charge, m'lud

However, when they come on with no doctype, no semantic code, not even a pinch of validation, this angers me. If they take heed of the big IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM LOOK HERE FIRST, then the first post, then they will at least understand that we want them to have a doctype, and slightly valid code.

Coming on with none of the needed things means that they can't follow instructions, and aren't willing to help themselves.

Granted, often my first response is 'put a doctype in' (well, I am the doctype nazi ), but in a lot of cases ("Why doesn't this work in IE?") it fixes the problem right up.

Most of the regulars on this forum (and I include myself here) are keen to learn about CSS and XHTML from each other; keen to discuss issues of semantics, accessibility and usability; and they like the challenge of doing something well if it's going to be done at all. I think we are all similar in this respect, which is why the discussions end up so detailed and interesting.

Most of the newbies (one post only), however, seem to want nothing more than a quick fix to something they don't understand and have no intention of ever learning about either. To these posters I feel we should be blunt (or sharp - why do these opposites mean the same thing?). Even though this is a forum not a tutorial, there is still a wealth of information in the How To section, yet still they fire away with stupid questions like "what's wrong with my code?" and "can someone fix this as it doesn't work?" without even bothering to look at the home page. Send them off for validation and a DOCTYPE - see if I care! If they then come back having done as asked, at least we know they might appreciate our help and at least we might then feel happier about spending time answering their questions and encouraging them to become regular members of this popular forum.

Treat each question on its own merits is what I say; and if I feel that the poster is expecting way too much without even bothering to ask a decent question then I for one will send them off for a DOCTYPE and validation. Not that I do very often, but the desire is often there!

Edit: written before seeing the above post.

That's the best one:

"You need a Doctype, and to validate your code."

"Yo i put a doctype in and it doesnt work why not"

"You need a complete doctype, with the URL. Then, fix up those validation errors."

"never mind i got it sorted neway"

Here you go, just for us Gurus (and anyone else reading this ), the beginnings of my next sarcastic response.

Don't worry, this product is completely free - however, be warned, there are some dodgy doctypes you can get from other sites - ones missing the URL. You want to get an official one from W3C.

Use this to start your page off. Then, head on down to validator.w3.org, the shop next to the W3C store. They will look through your code for you, and make sure you haven't made any silly little mistakes.

Be warned, however, that if you don't have a Doctype, they're not very willing to help.

After you've been to these shops, and done what you can, you'll need to go 4 or 5 blocks downtown to CSSCreator, a little suburb just outside the WWW.

Open the door, enter the lobby, and you'll be greeted with numerous doors, and the helpful feller at reception - under the big neon sign "How To". - you can't miss it - it's huge, and the first thing you'll see.

Check in with him, he'll give you a nice pamphlet explaining which room to go to, who to ask, and what to ask them. Don't worry, before he lets you in, he'll inform you that you need a Doctype and valid code.

If you've been to the W3C, you'll be fine; if not, don't panic, he can take you over there in a jiffy.

Once you're into the right room, you'll be faced with a huge noticeboard, with lots of paper with writing on it. Have a look through the titles - they're big and underlined - and see if any of them seem like your problem. If they do, read it, take a note, and try it.

If not, take a piece of paper from the "New Topic" box, and write up your problem. Leave the room, have a cup of tea in the lounge, or visit the 'Off Topic' room to chat with us regulars.

If you see one of us get up and go into the room you posted your problem, follow them in - they'll probably read your problem, and scrawl a note at the bottom about how to fix it.

(Blimey, that's a lot! Well, I'll probably finish it when I can be bothered! )

Actually 'head, I very much appreciated your response( - I am glad we are reacting with a bit of humour - in one way this is heavy stuff - but from another perspective this is just an online forum and not a shrine. Although you are often on the DOCTYPE rampage, I was not reacting to your comments specifically but they did help tip the balance. My greatest concern is that some other posters have gotten on the bandwagon as well (not referring to any of the responders in the previous thread, BTW) and pile on with DOCTYPE and validation related comments without addressing the underlying problem. If that is ALL you have to offer, i.e., if you don't know the answer, or don't care to answer the originating poster's question, perhaps you shouldn't respond at all.

I know when I started out I knew squat about standards. I got started with CSS more because I was lazy than anything else. You mean I don't have to put those fricking <font> tags everywhere if I use CSS? Far fricking out, sign me up for some CSS. Only later did I glimpse the TRUTH and the WAY of standards-compliant coding and design. For a newb, it is probably too much to assimilate all at once. I mean, DOCTYPE alone is a rat's nest. How to explain easily why we have different number versions plus loose, transitional and strict (plus frameset) and the need for a complete url for the DTD to someone who barely understands HTML basics?

It is a real art judging a newb's level of competence and sometimes you need to proceed gradually. While I agree that sometimes we get people who join as one question wonders who will never stay and contribute to the community, we can make this a self-fulfilling prophecy if we treat all first posters that way. While we have links to many resources that would help persons new to coding, a link looks like any other link regardless of whether it goes to the most wonderful step-by-step guide to standards-compliant coding or to a learned discussion of the finer points of using image replacement. It is much easier to find a link that you know is there and know is important. When you first arrive it is all so much fine print - you simply don't know enough when you begin to know what is important. I mean can you imagine a newb hitting thefixor site - instant overload.

So it all comes down to finding that balance between what the poster want's to know and what they need to know.

DE

What I'm working on now os first informing them about validation and a doctype, then moving on to helping them solve the problem as well.

This way, they'll understand that standards have a huge effect on the way a page is rendered, and the problem will be fixed.

The toughest situation I've come up against is when a new visitor asks a question regarding a coding problem but whose code is more unruly that the cast of Diff'rent strokes (sans Mr. Drummond). Sometimes a visitor's code is so messed up that it's near impossible to know if the problem isn't directly related to the unruly code. In these cases, I advise people to clean up the code and come back.

If the code is a bit homely looking but I can tell their problem is not linked to semantics, I will attempt to answer the question straight-away. Every helper draws their own line for how bad a visitor's code has to look before pointing them to standards and not attempting an answer. For instance, a user's could be completely littered with <font> tags for style and <table>s for layout. Although these methods are outdated and/or deprecated, they will not cause a page to break at this point in time. It's very tempting, though, to look at this kind of code and not say something.

The solution is to do both. If the code is nasty but isn't related to the question at hand, solve the question and kindly point the visitor to a place of higher learning involving HTML/XHTML/CSS. I'm not claiming sainthood here and have probably been guilty of the above behavior on more than one occasion. However, I have thought this through about a month ago and arrived at my happy medium.

- Antibland

I could not agree more Antibland - if you get a problem and you can see the fix for it even if the code is terrible why not just let em know - then go on to point out the hillarious / hidious / invalid / doctypeless / whatever code that they are stringing together.

It's more likely that they will eventually learn and return and hopefully contribute in the future then if their problem is not addressed at all and just told to go doctype their example code.

That's not to say that this is always possible, to quote

The problem is constant attrition of horrible lookign code and repeating the same advice can cause this line to be drawn higher and higher. Its good once in a while to lower it back down though and be a bit more patient, we were all useless incompitents at one point i'm sure.

It looks like our methods of response are all within the bounds of reasonableness.

Firstly where possible attempt to answer the posters question as clearly and simply as possible, being thoughtful of their possible lack of knowledge.
Then point out the benefits of validation, doctypes etc.

Try to remember what it's like when you are first starting to learn a new skill and you are stuck at a problem. All you want to do is find a quick solution so you can continue your path to knowledge.
It takes time to come to terms with CSS and CSS is only a small part of web development. Don't try to force all that knowledge on them at once, just show them the right path to take.

Well, here is the sticking point, then. In many cases rendering mode has nothing to do with the original poster's question or problem. Granted their HTML may be poor and badly formatted so that it is hard to follow what they were trying to do. However, as I suggested, you need to make an effort to get into the person's head, perhaps render their code - I usually pop it into HTMLKit and give it a side by side look rendered in IE and Gecko previews. Sometimes I run it through TidyUI as well to identify validation problems and to format the code so I can better understand the nesting involved.

On the other hand, sometimes DOCTYPE becomes important as in this thread from Webmaster World - Look at SuzyUK's masterful post on the second page of the thread. It identifies each of the methods being suggested and explains how and why DOCTYPE was important to the discussion. It also gives a reference to the classic DOCTYPE article at ALA.

It is my personal feeling that if you haven't really tried to understand the poster's problem, tested their code and confirmed that there is a rendering mode issue, you shouldn't jump in with a post that mentions only DOCTYPE to the exclusion of addressing any part of the poster's question. It is immaterial whether one talks about standards-compliant coding first and the problem second or vice versa. Again, personally, I would always respond to the question first, then say: "You also need to be concerned about a number of other issues affecting your code. First, you need to have something called a DOCTYPE to ensure more predictable display across the variety of web browsers (like Firefox, Internet Explorer, Netscape and others). The DOCTYPE tells the browser which HTML standard you are using. You then should validate your HTML against that standard. The validator will help find mistakes and teach you to be a better coder. There is also a validator for CSS that works the same way. If you take the time to use a DOCTYPE, validate your HTML and CSS first in the future, you may have less need to ask questions. Good luck. Note: learning and validator links are also below my signature"

DE

I agree with this.

Remember Hercules and the Wagoneer.

I've been reading this thread with great interest. For the newbie, css/xhtml/this forum/tutorials galore/etc means there is a lot to take on. it is confusing. and when you are starting to get with the program it's difficult to know how important doctypes/validation.

nevertheless, although there are genuine posters, there are a large number of plebians who just want a quick answer and for someone to fix their site. I find them frustrating, so for all you css-superstars it must be bloody annoying to say the same thing over and over and over.

It's the ones who genuinely want to learn that suffer.

however, I although I've not been a part of the forum for long, what I have noticed is that we have these posts/rants from time-to-time and that settles everyone down and even the doctype nazi is nice to people ( ).

kind of self regulating.

all I can say is that I have learnt so much from this forum and finding it was one of the luckiest days.

larmyia

Reading the same sort of ill-prepared, 'take you lot for granted', 'can't say please or thank you' posts over and over is indeed tiresome and demoralising. It is without doubt the reason that so many gurus (whether labelled as such or not) desert this place. I'm a relative newcomer (and not really a guru) but I've seen too many skilled people go and not return.

Now, I don't know about anyone else but I've got a business to run and six-months' worth of orders to get through. But I like to feel part of online communities as they keep me informed and they keep me sane. So the answer for me (and DCE as well it seems) is to take nothing more than passing glances at the 'newbie' type posts, jumping in only when a title attracts the eye (take note newbies). This means that we're still around to join in with the really interesting posts, but we don't get too frustrated by the 'same old stuff' posts (although a lack of manners will always irritate me).

This in turn means that some of the repetitive newbie posts will be left to other newbie-come-regulars [Tony - lighten up on the word censor] to deal with; to whom I would say: have a go. I'm not exactly an expert in CSS so who says you don't know more than me (you probably do). But be polite and help each other out. If you can improve on someone else's attempt at help then do so without being rude. It is these sort of threads from which everyone learns - it is the crux of what community support is all about.

And when you get to be classed as a 'proper' regular, then you have earned the right to get stroppy now and then. Take TPH for example: he was an irritating, over-opinionated g*t sometimes (sorry TPH but that's how I saw things), but he stayed around and matured very quickly into a very helpful regular who now epitomises what this forum is all about. If he wants to be blunt now and then (or if any of the other regulars do) then as far as I'm concerned he has earned the right to do so by giving so much of his time to this community resource. You don't get an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

In summary then, my advice is this (take it or leave it):

(1) Newbies - ask proper questions backed up with links and an attempt to show that you want to learn about CSS and all the other associated issues.

(2) Newbie-come-regulars - please give back to the forum what you have taken by jumping in if you think you can help someone else; but be polite and earn respect, don't demand it.

(3) Regulars - try not to get overly involved in the forum or you'll get forum-burnout. Pick a facet of CSS that you have a good grasp of and focus on becoming an expert in it. This way, we can all help each other out by sharing the load of learning so much. We already have a DOCTYPE expert (TPH), so what can you give to the community that others can't (or don't have the time for)?

(4) Gurus (whether labelled as such or not) - pick and choose your posts to respond to and don't allow yourself to be drawn into long, time-consuming threads where your time is leached by the hour and then not even appreciated with a proper Thank You. Stay cool - relax - hang around.

That was funy

Well, maybe nice is too strong a word . . . I'd prefer civil

Love the omelette analogy.

And a 'Java is NOT JavaScript' Nazi, don't forget!

Ooooh, can't we change guru to CSS-Superstar!

Maybe a CSS-Globetrotter would be nice

This is why I love this forum!

Intelligent, reasoned, debate from members committed to raising the standard for those who give a crap. I think we have seen some pretty deep philosophical takes on how we approach the always challenging task of responding to posters who come here with vastly different levels of knowledge and commitment. There seems to be a wider divergence of actaul practice, however, than is illustrated by the views expressed in this thread. That is what started my original comments.

Perhaps it is my job here to every once in a while step back and look at how we deal with the "newb factor." Perhaps I whinge on their behalf too much. I know Roy hit the nail on the head when he said you gotta pick and chose when to respond and not burn yourself out. That is what I have had to do. We see some stellar learned posts like kk5st's discussion in the divs vs. tables thread that can teach the old dogs some new tricks (but you have rendering problems in FF with your example, kk, when you mouseover the fields :roll: ). We also see folks like larmyia (who has started more than her* share of interesting threads) go from near-newb to contributing help to others.

One thing I am going to suggest to Tony is to allow moderators more room in their signature blocks. A number of us have links to resources in our sigs but it would be better if we had a bit more room for some more so we can say: see #3 below. Either that or I am going to keep a slug of text on hand like in my previous post that I can paste as required.

DE

[Edited to correct larmyia's gender - sorry, but I was too much a gentleman to peek )

DE

You mean her...

thanks wolfcry911

you got in while I was having my lunch

Sigh.

It's happened again -

http://www.csscreator.com/css-forum/ftopic9872.html

No standards, no doctype, Dreamweaver code.

However, I'm refraining from commenting, as I have no way of helping to fix the problem.

I beg to differ. I've been reading some of your latest posts and you're being extremely nice!

where is the real tph? has he been abducted by aliens???

Careful about carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders David, there are others that care as well

Hugo.

That's odd. The plan is a gray background on the input and label, plus a color change and a text change on the label. Is that not what you're seeing?

[edit]I should note that no particular effort was made to account for IE's shortcomings. :P[/edit]

And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

It's simple really.

1. If you can offer a suggestion to the point, post.

If you need clarification or additional info, post.

If the DTD and validation suggestion are just boilerplate, wait until those problems are actually at root. They will be soon enough.

If correcting invalid html/css or using the proper DTD will affect the problem, see item a.

If you need to rant, take it to "Off Topic", and post away.

cheers,

gary

[/]

exactly Gary,

I now utter, Hitler, Naz is.

I believe it was you who pointed out that the invocation of Hitler and Nazis for the purpose of ending a thread was self negating.

cheers,

gary

Oops :oops: your quite right, secretly I just want it to run and run

Bumped and stickied. I think it's important

It is rather nice to see that some of you actually have an clue as to what a learning forum is all about.

Not everyone that comes here has the luxury of being a school/college student hurrying off to classes and pep rallies. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you don't study and work hard with whatever goals you have set for yourself. But, lets face it, you really don't have a clue as to what the real world is like yet.

Family responsibilities, job commitments, business/finance, payments... I could go on but then someone would probably say something about me wasting bandwidth.

The bottom line is this- not everyone that visits here and asks a question is thinking of making web design their life profession. BLASPHEMY! No, REALITY. Some of us could be members of a church group just trying to make their simple welcoming website a bit friendlier to the next person that is in need of spiritual guidance.

Why the witch hunt? I get the feeling that some of you are consumed with a pressing need to scurry amongst the postings in search of missing doctype's and code violations. It is great that you know this and can recognize it whenever you see it. But, I know virtually nothing about CSS and yet I too can look at someone's code and correctly tell them they have no Doctype.

If you want people to respect and admire your knowledge then you should try to be a part of the solution and not just another know-it-all-but-reveals-nothing poster.

NellieW

Family responsibilities, job commitments, business/finance, payments... I'm going to be as nice as I can about this and say that you need to shut your piehole about that.

You can always ask for a refund of what you paid for admittance.

Here's the facts, we are here to help. If you don't want to follow our advice, or help yourself then why should we bother? We are not here to be abused by everyone that wants to come along. Read this: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/05/05/why_we_wont_help_you

For the most part the people here ARE professional web designers and if you want their advice they are going to give it to you. If you have no doctype, you need one. The helping may as well stop there until you add one. We tend to do things correctly here. If you want to know how we can show you. If you don't really care about it then what's the point?

I hope that my life is hard enough to please you.

ooooh, you little tease you

Ah, you took the high road and I the low.

Sorry, there's just one thing in all the world that someone is not going to tell me and that was it.

Family responsibilities, job commitments, business/finance, payments...
NellieW, I feel your pain, believe me I do. Domesticity, parenthood and err... marital duties do not sit happily with web design and development. You know that, members of this forum know that. Yet, despite aggro from their significant others, they still steal back to their computers time after time (often right into the early hours) to try to help others and share their very hard won knowledge.

A little give and take here Madam. And if female is what you are, you are letting the side down, girl :roll:

Triumph,

My earlier post here was not directed at you and if you would kindly take the time to reread it you will see this to be true (unless you also post under other names). If you take personal offense to what I said in reference to someone else then you would be mistaken as that was not my intention.

You were the only one so far to post a possible answer to a question I put forth in the styling column. Thank you for that effort.

But, I still feel that if someone has no answer for a posted question and can only find fault as to how it was presented then that person hasn't really done anything that merits praise.

By the way, I have no clue as to which Doctype to use for my problem and if I had place one there without that understanding it would only make more complications.

NellieW

My point is you do not know what each member goes through. It does upset me when someone (and it happens often) informs me that I do not know how hard life is. No one has yet offered to take a walk in my shoes.

The point is this, when you say that someone doesn't know what life is about what about the child born with Spina Bifida, that has never walked and often times breaks a toe or even a leg and doesn't know because they have no feeling below their waist. He still makes it through life each day and though it took more effort than anyone else still made it to college only to be told that they "don't have a clue what life is about".

I really don't care if you were talking to me or not.

That's pure nonsense. Any complete doctype will switch your browser into standards mode, you just have to code to the standard you choose.

Triumph - as a self-made man on the wrong side of forty with kids, who had a very hard and turbulent upbringing, is ex-forces (seen the world), who has suffered his fair share of life's knocks and pains, and who started a business from nothing during the recession in the late eighties, I took great offence at Nellie's post suggesting that none of us have a clue about the real world. I very nearly responded in a brutally defensive way. But then I allowed myself time to calm down and forced myself to see the funny side of such a crass post.

crass adj showing a grossly insensitive lack of intelligence

Nellie - your insensitive, inflammatory post was open and aimed at everybody, no matter who you thought you were addressing; and the people that give their time so freely to help others on this forum, do not do so to win your praise. If you want to understand Doctypes and how they might affect your work (whether for a small church site or an international corporate resource), then go and use Google because I doubt you'll get much help around here after those comments :roll:

Some of us! have gone to lengths to try and help people with issues such as what Doctype to use so for you to say your not sure which to use makes those efforts a waste of time, thanks for that!

You will find that the majority of members here are not collage kids or students tut are grown adults earning their living in this wretched business and struggling more often than not to make ends meet, it is very uncivil of you to make sweeping generalizations such as that, and can assure you that many of us have our private hells to contend with, yet still find time to try and help people out here.

I'm not going to go into the question of how some conduct themselves as regards the Doctype issue or lack of it. It is something that we are well aware of and keep an eye on thankyou, but it is a difficult issue and posters should not get the impression that it's ok to post unprepared questions and code; ask for help on the matter by all means and someone will guide you through that area.

I trust that this thread is not going to drag on too long

Hugo.

It is obvious to me now that there is only one point of view and if I were to try and state mine then I would always be wrong. I will no longer post so you won't have any reason to be upset with me anymore.

I will continue to visit the site and try to grasp an understanding from the posts of others.

You have the power so you can erase all my previous posts and it will be as though I was never here.

Peace be with you.

NellieW

...priceless

No don't take that tack, that doesn't cut it I'm afraid, it's no good accusing us of not being open to discussion or of only having one point of view, if you have issues then stand your ground and argue them but please do not insult or belittle us, and why would we want to be deleting your posts we do not edit the forum to reflect our take on things this is a an extremely open forum, everyone has a right to their opinion within reason.

Hugo.

Hey, when you're wrong, you're wrong.

If you cannot be bothered to even present your question in a manner that suggests you have a modicum of clue, how can you not expect a certain degree of chastisement? Eric S.Raymond has written a seminal piece that, among the clueful, has near RFC standing. Before posting to any usenet group, mail list or forum, you should definitely read and understand it, How To Ask Question the Smart Way. Additionally, there are several stickies on the various forums here that deal with the same issue.


That is very true as long as that view is counter to accepted practices and forum etiquette.

You're going to stop posting? Oh diddum widdle girl get her feelings hurt? Wise up. Nobody starts out knowing anything. We all have to learn, and we all make mistakes. When the clueful are called down, they make every effort to learn from it, not get defensive and show their a**. You are an admitted newbie to css and are obviously new to professional oriented forums, so where do you get the chutzpah to get your back up when told anything by members with thousand( of posts and are perhaps forum moderators. If you're that thin skinned, go to some Microsoft lusers forum where nobody says anything if they can't say something nice. There you will have your tummy rubbed by the other ignorant members. That's right, you'll be getting your answers from others just as ignorant as you, because the clueful will have left.


Do so. In fact, continue to post your questions. You might want to issue a public apology for that silly 'real world' insult you laid down, and you might want to study up on net etiquette. The well formed questions you ask will not only help you, but also the other folk with similar problems.


This a good example of the definition of clue. Had you any, you would simply have Googled your own words, which doctype.

Climb down off your high horse, buy some clue, come back and be welcome.

cheers,

gary

What's the most bizarre about this little episode is that the only thing I can find that might warrant such an outburst is being asked: "do you have a doctype?" Bit OTT. :roll:

It is interesting to return and see this old thread I started still striking sparks. If you read this from the beginning, Nellie, you will see that the persons currently taking you to task are ones whose posts show they often think deeply about the craft and how best to respond to individual forum members who exhibit a very great variation in ability and interest and committment. I am pleased to return here after a long absence and see most of my old friends still around and posting.

I stopped contributing here last year in July, and as I related in another thread, I basically burned out. The futility of answering questions that a simple web search would have answered, people ignoring the [url=http://csscreator.com/css-forum Here[/url] link at the top of the forum that would take care of half their problems, the lack of basic decency and gratitude in a large number of posters - it all became too much for me and I lost any sense of pride as a teacher, as a guardian of the craft. I feel I let my end down, let my comrades down, but I no longer felt any sense of pleasure or fulfilment in what I was doing.

So Nellie, I won't try to take a strip off you, but you only have to look at me to know that not all people will care to respond to the things you said, some may just give up and slip away and you will never be the wiser. So you can slip away, too, or you can go back to the beginning of this thread and try to understand the balance we try to maintain, some better, some worse than others, but volunteers every one. And then you can decide whether you want to make a fresh start. And I can decide whether I want to start again as well.

DE

Pick and choose the threads you respond to, and if anyone tries to bleed you dry, simply ignore the thread. Better to walk away and remain a regular visitor than to give your soul and then stay away

Good to see you back DC

Yes, indeed. It is good to see you again.

This may be not what is expected of a first time poster but I am very new to css and I am on probation for a job to produce semantically correct, validating, accessible templates for a firm that produces web sites as part of what they do. My new boss insisted I visit several relevant forums to learn. This forum was top of the list and I was told to try to discern the difference between volume posting for the sake of numbers and status and volume posting because the poster truly knew the answer to problems and really did want to help. I expect there will be a quiz on that later.

I was also told to read people who offered fresh insight or a new slant. There seem to be many forum members who have time and expertise to answer the many questions that a search would have answered but few whose words and expertise are strong enough to help move the web forward. Please reconsider your position.

Thank you from a lurker who registered to make this post and who has learnt far more from this forum than all the others added together.

Welcome, Meridian, and thank you for your words.

Now, less lurking and more wurking!

DE

I'll be back!

DE

unlike a fine wine I see your jokes haven't improved with time

only kidding!

What does your boss think you're going to gain from this? So at the end you're gonna be able to pick someone who's trying to boost their ego over one who's genuinely trying to help. How's that gonna help you do your job? :?

And what exactly does this mean? If you're not up to moving the web forward you should butt out?

My boss thought I was going to gain umh loss of innocence in thinking that members' words were important just because they had a lot to say, loads of posts or shouted the loudest. I was caught trying out many solutions and links offered that turned out to be complete dead-ends. I was wasting my time and my boss's money. If I learn which people to listen to, it will help me to apply correct or acceptable solutions rather than those that are completely irrelevant or seem to work but are actually cludges and bad practice or those that haven't been properly tested. And it will help me to keep my job .

You have taken this right out of context. It was directed at DC Elliott. I have read many of his past posts and it is my opinion that his insightful and polite posts would be a loss to other members and forum etiquette if he just stopped posting, rather than posted selectively. There are others who actually are shining lights and CSS innovators that have also stopped posting. I may be new to CSS but I am by no means new to the business which is why my boss is persevering with me and giving me a little leeway as I add CSS to my skillset.